Do you know how much your health insurance premiums have risen over the years? I was just looking at old pay stubs and I can't believe how much they have gone up. As a couple from 2005-2010 we had seen some large increase 25% in 1 year. I am floored. Because the overall dollar amount isn't large I haven't paid as much attention as I should have. But looking now I'm in shock.

As a couple
2005 $46 per pay period (26)= $1196
2006 $46 = $1196
2007 $32 = $832, they switched providers
2008 $40 = $1040, 25% increase
2009 $42 = $1096 , 5% increase

However in 2010 we had our first child and moved to the family plan in medical health insurance.

2010 $46 Couple (moved to family) $82 = $2132, 9% increase as a couple, so I assume 9% family.
2011 $84 = $2184, 2.5% increase
2012 $96 = $2496, 14.2% increase
2013 $101 = $2626, 5.2% increase
2014 $119 = $3094, 17.8% increase

Wow we've seen some serious increases. Apparently the insurance company raises it one year A LOT and then not by much the next year. In the grand scheme of things $3100 in premiums for our family is not a lot. But we still have to pay $20/visit copays. When everything is said and done we spend around $5k with premium and copays.

Is it worth it? Yes because employer sponsored programs are much better than what you can buy as an individual. But still when I see a 17.8% increase I cringe knowing that our 3% merit raise is really not going as far.

I went online to shop for a family of four with $2k individual/$4k family deductibles; Maximum annual OOP $6350 individual/$12,700 family, with $50 co-pay after deductible is $596.71/month! Ouch. Okay so I guess we'd better keep working or at least wait and see how health insurance works out. I mean we could easily have a higher deductible but it doesn't appear to be an option where we live.

Mr Money Mustache pays for a family of 3 $240/month HDHP. BUT where he lives is substantially cheaper. It really does vary because in the comment section of his post many commentors are unable to get their premiums for individual policies that low. So YMMV in buying your own. I can't believe that ours would be nearly 2x what his is monthly.

Our dental costs $20.90 a pay period = $543.4/year. The question is would it be cheaper for us to self insure? Not really with cleanings for a family of 4 (well 3) 2x a year at $100-150/pop we are looking at a minimum of $600 OOP at a minimum. And this year like last I still am having an implant crown put on. Which by the way the insurance company doesn't want to pay to put on! Arrgh.

Our vision is $6.54 a pay period = $170/year which used to be easily reached with me getting contacts every year (got a year for free with insurance). But I'm not sure now it's still worth it with a check up being $49 elsewhere. But for $170 maybe it's worth the peace of mind.

I am still just floored at how fast health insurance appears to be going up. Way above raises and cost of living inflation. And it's still a lot cheaper than buying our own.

Well my day yesterday started off eventfully. My younger kiddo rolled off the bed and cut her face. She needed stitches. She's fine thankfully but boy it was a lot of blood and screaming. This is my accident prone kid. Oh well.

So my issue? The american health care system. We called the pediatrician and went in at 830 to see the nurse practitioner. She says you need stitches go to the ER. I ask why not do it in the office? Or do you refer out to a different dr. Nope the ER. So we go to the ER for sutures. SERIOUSLY? She said the dr don't have the right equipment and don't do it enough to be comfortable doing sutures. Okay then. We go there at 8:45.

I thought I keep reading about all these people who use the ER as care facilities driving up the cost of healthcare. I am now one of these people and I WENT to my supposed "gate keeper" pediatrician and got sent to the ER! Okay how can they say the prices of health insurance is out of control because people don't use primary care dr when the primary care dr don't know what else to do? Besides the fact I was annoyed I could have gone straight to the ER, but I "thought" I was doing the right thing.

And besides the fact that we were there waiting for sutures and didn't leave the ER until 2 pm! 5 hours! really? It wasn't busy we were like the only people in there but we had to wait for staff to come on? The inefficiency left me incensed. But my kiddo is fine and I am not sure if I should have taken her to a plastic surgeon or surgeon office where it could have been done in the office and faster. Arrgh.

On a positive note I made $150 on a focus group about taxes. Granted my money went straight to our ER copay. And I didn't learn anything. If anything I learned that people really don't save money.

There was a real guy standing up in front of the class showing us his financials. Here they are married with 1 child.

Income $112k
Paid Federal Taxes $10,700
SS $6900
Medicare $1624
State $4750
401k $4480 (4%)
Health Insurance Premium $6k (HDHP)
HSA $2k
Mortgage/Property Taxes $16k

Federal Taxes owed - $7700, refund $3k

Not a big deal, but seriously this guy is living on $6200/month and he can't save more? I don't think he was saving for a Roth IRA. I sat there wondering why wouldn't the guy be saving more? Isn't he worried? Where is the rest of his $4400/month going to after he pays his mortgage?

It's easier to trim a dollar in the budget than to try and save more. But it was very eye opening about how people are trying to save for retirement in this country.

Yes. They certainly aren't cheap. Whether you work or stay at home there is a lot of lost opportunity cost in having children. Staying at home you've lost those years of income. Working? Well daycare might cost more than you make (yes I have friends working to keep skills up, not because they make more than daycare).

But otherwise? Yes. You are on a family medical plan instead of perhaps two individual plans covered by your employer. There are A LOT more dr visits because kids catch everything and parents catch everything from their kids. Kids are gross and disgusting.

Let's not forget college.

Can kids be done on the cheap? Sure, they can be relatively inexpensive. I breastfeed and used cloth diapers sometimes. Those are savings when they are babies.

But overall you are feeding, clothing, and needing more space as a family. Yes kids can share a room, but if you didn't have kids, would you even have a two bedroom place? I mean that most seriously since DH and I lived happily in 1 bd/studios with less than 500 sq ft and our dog.

I mean without kids we could live super small and super cheap. But kids do increase your cost of living. Without kids we would probably not live outside the city so we'd need 1 less car or no car. We could bike but with kids it's hard to bike to the grocery store or any errands, especially when they are young and always with you. We'd live in a tiny apartment. We would buy less food. And honestly we'd probably be able to retire by 40!

So people who talk about kids don't cost much have got to be kidding. Kids are substantially more than just diapers, formula, college, food, clothes. There are so many sneaky costs. Do I believe it costs $250k? Probably, I mean just rent alone where we are it's probably doubled from moving up apartment size. And yes I know people raise kids on very little money. But if you asked those same people how much kids costs? It's still probably the same proportion of their income as those who make 2x as much.

But the kids are worth it every penny, too bad they don't cost pennies.

My neighbors both work and have 1 child, 3 months older than my 4 year old. They play great together and she's a lovely girl. I enjoy watching her and she's a truly great kid. My neighbors are nice people. They both have MBAs and are a couple of years older than my DH and I. We live connected by a wall and my 4 year went to school and once said "the little girl living behind the wall, I play with her all the time," to the teachers. When I explained we all had a good laugh.

So you can imagine this family probably makes double what my DH makes. At least that's what my DH and I believe. So $400k/year? Probably but at the minimum $300k.

So what happened is I volunteered to keep their daughter 2 full days next week while they work because they don't have childcare. Their private montessori school is out and they can't find a camp to send her to. The other three days they are going to use backup care agency and have a nanny they don't know come to their house. I feel terrible whenever I see that happen because I know the nanny just sits there with their daughter in the house. And she's pretty bored. So yes I always offer during school vacations or days off to take their kiddo with mine. I've been doing this for years. I can't do everyday of the week because of other obligations but I do try my best.

The same problem will occur at the end of the summer when the week before school they were "waitlisted" for the camp they are in the rest of the summer because they didn't register early enough. They registered in January. I'm not sure I'm ready to take her on 5 full days, so I suggested half day camp for the week with my older kiddo and I'll keep her the rest of the day. I have to find a camp I can afford however.

Right now I've signed my kid up for one camp @ $90/week for half days, and I feel super guilty spending that much. I know they could take vacation but they are taking 2 weeks in July when their parents come to visit and have used another week during spring break and more during Christmas. So they do take vacation to care for their daughter, but this is a lot.

But what stunned me? The price of her camp. Okay her montessori school is ridiculous enough at $35k/year. But the camp? Well try $1200/week. Yes a week! Seriously what they are shelling out in camp is about what my family lives on with our extremely expensive mortgage a month!

To be fair they make double what we make. But even doubling our spending to $10k/month when half of it goes to camp? They shop entirely at whole foods and probably never price compare. I know they dress themselves and their daughter in great name brands and they get boxes daily delivered from online shopping. They never shop in real stores. So even while I assume they are saving a lot, they also spend a lot. Their monthly overhead has got to be high.

But on this forum we always talk about spending and money. So I discussed with my DH if I went back to work and we had all this extra disposable income. Every penny would be disposable obviously since we can survive on his now minus childcare. Yes I may pay right now for childcare but that is a transient expense. So would our lifestyle change? I would hope not.

But the real question is would I be able to spend that freely if I made that much? If we were making $30k/month gross and were saving $5k, taxes $10k, and had $15k to spend would I? I think I would be saving every extra penny and would shorten our time toward financial independence.

I realized no I wouldn't. I can honestly say I can see the exhaustion on my neighbors faces. I can see how they can barely play with their daughter. Their actual comment "we are trying to cut back her tv watching." They never go out on the weekends except to eat. They'll send her to the playground with us but they don't join us. The fact that they are struggling to be able to cover watching her because they are already using all their vacation days. Every day they are on the hamster wheel. So perhaps my DH and I are giving up FI and early retirement, but we're also enjoying our life now. We'll get there eventually but it'll be slower.

What would happen if they were on 1 income? Or two part-time incomes? Right now they give their daughter the best of everything. She'll probably go to college of her choice paid, paid wedding, house DP, etc.

I wonder if perhaps it's the catch-22 of the "upper middle class" dual income lifestyle? The people making enough that they feel they should afford everything but can't. And somehow manage to spend an enormous amount on just "bare bones budget" because their choices force them into needing so much money? The cars, the big mortgage, the private schools, etc?

Recently I've definitely made peace with our lifestyle. In the sense before I wondered if I wasn't "achieving" enough. I am not contributing to society by working. I am not using my degree. I am not producing as a fully functioning adult "should" be. I feel inadequate compared to the many high power dual income couples I meet and know. Where I chat with the nannies rather than moms since I know them better.

But this year I've made peace with it. I've made peace with my decision to stay at home. That I do not need to work to validate myself. That even if I chose to work, money doesn't rule my life. So whatever I chose to do I know our lifestyle will be okay. If my DH loses a job we are not going to crash and burn and never retire.

Rather we could possibly "retire" now. Now I feel secure that I do not need $3M at a minimum to retire. I think $1.5M is adequate if not less. And I don't feel pressured that we have to work until retirement or else we'd be shunned for being lazy.

Money can bring great happiness. But rather being content with what you have is more important.

So I look across the wall and realize that if I went back to work we could be my neighbors. It's possible we'd be financially independent in 2 years. We could possibly save $200k/year or more. But it's also possibly we'd up our consumption just because we'd have to. We'd need more convenience because we have less time. I hope they enjoy their daughter as much as I do. I will say I do have envy sometimes at the thought they could be FI today possibly (not sure about their finances, I think they have a lot in the bank because they make a lot) while we still need to work another 5-10 years to get to where they are.

Have you ever contemplated your money or your life? Did you make a choice to scale back or retire early? Or take a different job or move to slow down? Why?

Decided to summarize answers. I want a third kid now because I worry about getting older, birth defects, the usual nine yards. My DH is worried not about the short term finances and of course the normal long term financial hit college, weddings, cars, anything and everything.

So why am I short changing them as they get older? It's starting over, and our lifestyle has to go back to baby lifestyle versus older kids you can go biking, hiking, kayaking, camping, traveling, etc with. I admit we've just about hit the sweet spot with both kids and adding a third now would rock boat, but we're in the rhythm of babyhood. What if we wait and we don't want to go back? What if we wait and can't go back? What if we wait and realize that our life feels complete in 2 years that it doesn't feel now? I don't know.

But truthfully what really worries my DH? Finances in the mid-term. Short term we'd be fine, i'm home we make more than enough to survive and honestly if we didn't save as much he can chill. He is a little stressed out because he feels we don't save enough, but that's a completely different argument. Long term he is worried we won't make enough to afford college, weddings, retirement, etc for 3 kids versus 2. I think it'll work out.

But the mid term? This is the real kicker. In 6/2016 we agreed we are making a huge change in our life. We are selling our house that winter and leaving where we live. We are moving to the west coast without jobs if need be. We are going to live off of our savings, which will not be enough to retire. We will not have health insurance. We will have to buy some. We will not have unemployment or anything coming in. Our net worth will be dropping because we are going to be going NEGATIVE. We will only have outgo, no income.

Now things between now and 6/2016 can change. DH or I could get a job. He could get laid off and we get severance and unemployment. But we cannot predict those things.

So DH reason for not having a kid now is he doesn't want to add a mouth to feed, diaper, insure when we have no income in 2 years. If we were staying put we'd be discussing when to have another kid. If we had a job opportunity and were moving with guaranteed income, we'd talk more about our 3rd. But right now he said he feels as though we need to make sure we can provide for the 2 we have before we add a third. Having a third would also mean less time at night for job searching as he'd have to take on more of the childcare after we have 3rd.

My DH also said he still doesn't see himself retiring but he wants to be secure in the knowledge that if he were unemployed that it wouldn't matter. That we could live "retire" and not worry. Hence why he thinks we should be saving more and spending less. The fast we get to the point where we have enough to live, then the faster he'll feel secure.

Finally about cost of living and our jobs. I think BOS-NYC-DC, LA/SD/OC, SF and Honolulu are HCOLA in the US. These places taxes are high, condos start at $400k for a 1 bd, homes more in the range of $750k+ for small crappy homes. Then there is a second tier of costs like Seattle, Portland, Philly, Denver, NJ, Chicago, CT/VT/NH/RI, VA/MD, rest of CA. These places are cheaper I think condos start at $250k, homes $400k, and taxes are still higher than normal. But the homes are nicer even at the higher end the higher end of the HCOLA. Overall the cost of living I'd say is 20%-30% lower cost of living according to calculators and just looking at real estate in general. But ideally I think we should look at moving to Seattle or Portland.

That being said we're not quite able to buy a home cash. We're getting close but not quite. And even with a paid for home, my DH is hesitant because he thinks we are going to take a severe paycut. I don't believe the paycut is as severe as he thinks. He also believes it'll be very, very difficult to land a job. I'm sure it won't be easy but I don't know the job markets of those areas.

Perhaps I'm wrong and he's right but he feels that most people in business make $50k. With an MBA $80k, where we live. He thinks if we move he'll be lucky to land a job making $75k. I showed him the numbers according to what we pay now we're going from paying $45k in taxes federal and state, to if we make $100k or less nothing in federal taxes with 2 kids. So off the top assuming we make half of what we make now half of the difference goes away to taxes. Yes we save the other half but still.

Making less = need to save less. But he's still worried we should be saving the same proportion. His argument that our house because living in a HCOLA we'd buy a $1M home versus $500k if it goes up 10% you make more on the more expensive house. True, but you have to struggle making payments! And often in HCOLA people are paying 30-50% of their net on housing.

I find it interesting that my DH was always mustachian before it became a word. Apparently though he never intends on retiring he always planned and hoped to be financially independent before it was popular. Me? I had no idea we even had a chance. But perhaps this move will derail us. I don't know.

But until then we'll keep chatting about jobs, third kid, etc.

I want a third kid, my DH is not sure. He isn't sure we can afford it financially. He isn't sure we have the time or energy to support a third child. He isn't sure about our family dynamic. I'll admit I always planned to get pregnant this summer and have a third kid in 2015, I turned 35 recently.

But we're planning on moving and giving up our income in 2016. So my DH is worried about another mouth to feed and no income. I don't believe we'll be without an income, nor do we need much income to live I believe. But my DH is hesitant to add another child. He's worried that having another kid now will delay his job search. That he won't have the time to do it. caring for 2 kids and adding a third. He's probably not wrong.

But I am struggling with not having a third period. No we haven't done anything permanent. We agreed to the snip after we're done but that's not even been brought up. Nor have we gotten rid of any baby gear or clothes. If anything we've both been saving and storing clothes, shoes, gear. We both had assumed we'd have a third. But now what?

Do I just put aside all my baby things? Realize that the sacrifice of moving will be the third child? Will I regret it? Can I still do it in another 3 years when my kids might be 5 and 7? I'll be 38 at that time. Could I get pregnant at that age easily? Am I missing my window? Will I regret the sacrifice?

I mean we did have a heartfelt talk the other night and the truth hurts to write that my DH said if we weren't going to move we'd be talking of having kiddo number 3. I am just struggling right now with this decision.

I wonder if I shouldn't have had my kids earlier? That is probably my one regret.

So where I live Craigslist can be a hit or a miss. Sometimes you can find a great deal, and other times you are wondering what are people smoking in asking so much for USED crap.

This weekend I bought a tagalong bike trailer for $40. It the cheapest I found but when we looked at it, it was a 2008 model and heavy. But we did it to determine that my 4 year old was terrified of riding like that. Well good thing we didn't spend money on a new one. A new tagalong can be had for $96 on Amazon, and I still don't feel I got a great deal buying used honestly.

So I resold it that evening for $40 and considered myself lucky to get rid of it. And not have to try to storage it. We're pretty big bikers and used to bike all the time before kids. We have a trailer but with two kids it's tight.

So a friend suggested trying out her Weehoo. This thing prices out at $379 new on amazon. I looked at craigslist and found only 1 for sale in my area. I was annoyed because they were asking $300! No way, I wanted to pay that. Hello! Also the ad said "price firm". But I'm going to trial out my friends and if she likes it I'll try to find it used for $200 or I'll buy it new for $320 from REI with 20% off coupon.

I guess I like craigslist when I get a "deal" for used. But where I live I feel like people aren't aware that used items should be sold at a discount. Many people ask for new or almost new prices you can buy from places like "amazon, allbeebaby, etc".

But at the same time good deals can occasionally be had by people who are looking to dump stuff (myself included).

Do you like craigslist where you live? I hope my kiddo likes the weehoo and I can land one for $200.

This happened yesterday in the shoe store and I found it interesting in the perspective of money and kids.

I have some very rich friends. Very rich, we are talking the 1% or probably closer to the 0.5% easily. Very nice people and pretty normal in many ways.

But at the same time there are some stark differences. Now I will admit we are closing in to the 1% in income, but certainly not in assets. I openly acknowledge we live a very "nice" lifestyle and definitely upper middle class. And a lot of our income goes to savings so I do try to stretch every dollar we make. Every dollar not spent, means less we need to save.

But anyway as you know I went to stride rite and landed great deals on shoes. I bought 9 pairs of sneakers for $60. That works out to $6.66 a sneakers for stride rite!!! Cheaper than even thrift stores at least where I live. But I never buy shoes used because it's not good for developing feet to have used wear patterns. Even hand me downs between kids I sell if I think they are too used.

So as I was there on Monday getting more shoes (I bought 4 pairs Saturday), then "5" on Sunday. Anyway I ran into a friend who is "VERY RICH" and there because I told her about the sale. She was very excited to be buying shoes because her daughter needed them but to get on a deal was great.

I pointed out the cheapest options (ie what I bought) but she said her daughter wouldn't wear them. She said daughter is very picky, and will never buy the same shoe two years in a row. Also she's very particular about color and style. So the newest models.

She asked me how I get my kids to wear what I want, ie the cheapest, ugliest shoes in the store. She runs into the problem with clothes. Her kid won't wear stripes, no leggings with buttons, nothing but pink and purple, no zippers, etc. And always buys "high" end boutique clothes so she doesn't match other kids.

My answer? I told her that I tell my kids I'm not made out of money. They can pick their clothes out of the choices I give her (both our girls are 4) but that's it. I have X amount of $$$ and she's got freedom to pick from the clothes I offer up at the store or home, but at the end of the day we have to buy what we can afford. If she doesn't wear it and it's a gift, it's consigned.

I told my friend Mrs R, "I say we can't afford it. We can afford this and you can get this. You can wear this because that's it." She said how does she get it?

I said the "choice" is there is none. I give my kids choices because we can afford enough for choices. But I realize that if we had less money there are less choices. And even if we make more money I don't think I'll change.

I just can't fathom paying $16 for Hanna Anderson shorts for a 4 year old. Sure great quality, but seriously how long are they going to wear them? One season? Buy 4 target shorts for $20 and call it a day. At this age they wear clothes hard and for a shorter amount of time. People are going to say but it last longer. Really? Long enough that your growing kid can wear it for years?

I freak at the idea of paying $50 let alone $140 for a pair of shoes. Mrs R buys her kid uggs every winter and this season they were $140. I got knock offs from $20 from Walmart. At the end of winter her kids foot didn't fit and mine were worn. I bought winter boots kamiks for $10 from the outlet and she got whatever color was leftover. Mrs R bought new ones the color her kid wanted for $50.

Another example my kid gets to pick a snowsuit for $30 from Costco. It works fine and I'll use it for a hand me down for kiddo number 2. Mrs R buys North Face Jacket and fleece for her kid. We're talking $100 fleece and $200 jacket. I've got a lot of friends who do this. Seriously? Target and Costco. I mean one season! The kids don't stay the same size for more than one winter. At least I'd like to meet a kid who does.

But heck I will admit to getting some nice outerwear for my second kid from friends Mrs R then has her older kid need shorts and she said her husband asked how much should they give their teenager. He suggested $20? She said that won't buy one shorts. It would if you shopped at Target. But A&F, AE, mall stores, etc all cost way more than that for one pair. Perhaps I'm in for it when my kids get older and want name brands, but I doubt it. Again I'll be on the "it's not in our budget wagon."

But Mrs R is shocked I'm so strict with my kids. That I would be so religious as to say we can't afford it and you don't have a choice. She knows we make a decent living and to be to frugal is a little odd. I don't think I'm being mean, I think I'm teaching them that we only have so much money and we are using it wisely. So they don't have name brands and even their swim suits and "carters" clothes come from costco. But I spend less than $50/month on clothes all year for my kids including shoes and seasonal wear because of deals and costco.

Growing up my mom gave me a annual clothing budget and said this is it, make it last. So I had to shop sales and see how to stretch my dollars. I had what I had and that was it.

I think I'm teaching them not how to be cheap, but how to maximize income. I get we can afford "more", but honestly do kids really need name brand? And I buy stride rite because I think good shoes are important. And my kids feet are ridiculously wide. But even then I try to wait for deals and buy when they are on sale. I keep the receipt in boxes until we use them just in case they grow and skip a size. But otherwise? Target, Costco, Walmart, Marshalls, Kohls are my places for clothes. And even then I'll wait until serious discounts.

What are you teaching your kids? At least where I live everyone is a little fashionista, even boys. I can't imagine knowing what I know about prices of clothes how so many parents can spend so much on kids clothes. It's more than I even spend on myself.

This weekend kids shoes at Stride Rite are up to 60% off. I landed 5 pairs of sneakers for my kiddo for $49.95. $9.99 a pair of stride rite sneakers. I have 3 of the same and 2 aurora princess sneakers all different sizes.

But what happens if her foot grows? Well keep receipt and they honor exchanges. I stick it in the box until we use it. But for now with a kid in 10.5W I have sizes up to 1W. I am set for a long time and I finally got it a price I can swallow. Typically I hate paying more than $20 a pair and usually I try to score $10 or less for stride rite. Amazingly I've been lucky and done so for the most part.

Another savings is do the survey on the receipt for $5 next purchase and go back the next day and buy more. I'm doing that this weekend to buy for the younger one. I find that my kid's feet grow slowly but with the return policy I find it worth it no matter what. And I don't buy anything but sneakers at a deal price. Because kids feet do grow. But sneakers at least for us are used year round as playground or indoor play shoes.